Co-create the Streaming amplifier

[will williams]

Hi guys

we've been getting a lot of feedback from users expressing the need for a streaming amplifier.

At present, this product is in the research and development stage, and we will launch this product as quickly as possible.

We'd love to hear your suggestions. Let's collaborate and create this streamer together.

Additionally, we'd like to confirm a couple of points:

1. Between the three ID design options A, B, and C, which one do you prefer?

2. For a streaming amplifier, which features do you consider the most important, or are there any specific functions you would like us to add?

 

[Middle Earth]

A looks best to me

 

[MmmikeyMike]

I also vote for A just on appearance.

 

[Lobaba]

Can the antenna be removed?

Requests:
Front display
Chromecast, spotify, Tidal, roon support
Auto detect and switching of source from
Coaxial, optical, hdmi in, rca in, XLR input

 

[keith_h]

A is the most desirable form factor, but without display other than power on indicator and no need for a volume control.

I'm using an NAD M10 and Yamaha N5600 so that's my experience with these things. The NAD is a premium experience though and mine now is now powered by the V3 mono rather than nCore amplification which turns out to be a stellar combination. It turns on when it detects a signal, so when I fire up Spotify, and off after there is no input signal, when I stop streaming. Volume is controlled from Spotify and there is no need to touch the unit at all (or even have it on display) which I like a lot.

I would say the DAC should be good, and the amplification should match the DAC. For a desktop system I'd imagine a streaming app from a mobile device would control the unit which means a physical volume control may not be required. My own system sits behind a timber door, even though it has a big touch display its never used or even seen. There's really no need for external controls other than a visual power on indication. I like that the design contains a heatsink now given all the angst over the V3 mono and the case getting warm.

Pre and sub out would be a bonus. Compact size consistent with device stability is important. For example it needs to be able to stay in place with speaker wires and power attached. I'll be interested to see the hardware specification.

 

[tctctc]

As a streamer, I think the most important and challenging aspect is the UX of the app. It requires combining multiple music sources into one control, and I think WiiM is doing a great job with this. Personally, I love having an mono OLED screen to display basic information like the current playing title, artist, source, and quality (attached is my personal project built with Raspberry Pi + Volumio).

Another thing WiiM does well is providing an Open API, which allows me to build my own album cover display with remote media control.

 

[NormcoreGreg]

I think you should stick to your unique design language. Thus, D would be most suitable of the four. B looks like LAiV knock-off.
As for features, In my opinion software and its UX plays the critical role in such a product, especially if you plan to compete with products like WiiM Amp. Tidal Connect is a deal-breaker for me personally. Preamp out and at least one RCA in (to connect a phono stage), remote control and HDMI Arc would make it an interesting option to consider.

 

[will williams]

Can the antenna be removed?

Requests:
Front display
Chromecast, spotify, Tidal, roon support
Auto detect and switching of source from
Coaxial, optical, hdmi in, rca in, XLR input

Since we use a full aluminum alloy casing, removing the antenna will result in weak WiFi and Bluetooth signals. Alternatively, we could use a plastic casing, but we believe it doesn't match the premium feel of aluminum alloy.

 

[will williams]

I think you should stick to your unique design language. Thus, D would be most suitable of the four. B looks like LAiV knock-off.
As for features, In my opinion software and its UX plays the critical role in such a product, especially if you plan to compete with products like WiiM Amp. Tidal Connect is a deal-breaker for me personally. Preamp out and at least one RCA in (to connect a phono stage), remote control and HDMI Arc would make it an interesting option to consider.

Nice, thanks for your suggestion

 

[will williams]

As a streamer, I think the most important and challenging aspect is the UX of the app. It requires combining multiple music sources into one control, and I think WiiM is doing a great job with this. Personally, I love having an mono OLED screen to display basic information like the current playing title, artist, source, and quality (attached is my personal project built with Raspberry Pi + Volumio).

Another thing WiiM does well is providing an Open API, which allows me to build my own album cover display with remote media control.

View attachment 250

Yes, the hardware isn't an issue for our R&D; however, the UX/UI of the app and compatibility are very important aspects.

 

[will williams]

A is the most desirable form factor, but without display other than power on indicator and no need for a volume control.

I'm using an NAD M10 and Yamaha N5600 so that's my experience with these things. The NAD is a premium experience though and mine now is now powered by the V3 mono rather than nCore amplification which turns out to be a stellar combination. It turns on when it detects a signal, so when I fire up Spotify, and off after there is no input signal, when I stop streaming. Volume is controlled from Spotify and there is no need to touch the unit at all (or even have it on display) which I like a lot.

I would say the DAC should be good, and the amplification should match the DAC. For a desktop system I'd imagine a streaming app from a mobile device would control the unit which means a physical volume control may not be required. My own system sits behind a timber door, even though it has a big touch display its never used or even seen. There's really no need for external controls other than a visual power on indication. I like that the design contains a heatsink now given all the angst over the V3 mono and the case getting warm.

Pre and sub out would be a bonus. Compact size consistent with device stability is important. For example it needs to be able to stay in place with speaker wires and power attached. I'll be interested to see the hardware specification.

The hardware specifications for the streamer have not been finalized yet, and we hope to receive more suggestions from everyone.

For this product, we are likely to focus more on defining it as a DAC + PRE without amplifier functionality. Of course we will ensure proper heat dissipation.

Do you think the choice of DAC chip in the streamer is a critical factor?

 

[Karlaka]

Good afternoon, Will!
In principle, thank you for the opportunity you give us as consumers to express our opinions based on the development of a new product. In short, I think that a Streamer DAC + Pre, whether with or without an amplification stage, is a very attractive product. A good example of this is the WiiM Ultra. That said, if they decide to develop a Streamer DAC + Pre, then it can be paired with ZA3, V3 Mono, etc.

 

[Karlaka]

Below I am going to list a series of features that would be essential for my use case, but also thinking about the rest of the users and keeping costs low.

1.- I find A to be the most attractive design, although D is more faithful to the style of the Fosi brand. They both seem very good to me.

2.- Monochrome OLED screen for certain information about the file being played, source, volume, etc. No color touch screens that drive up the retail price.

3.- Inputs:
*Analog (RCA with line level, without phono stage. Anyone who likes vinyl can connect their own phono stage and not raise the price for a feature that a minority uses)
*Digital (RJ45, WiFi, optical, coaxial and HDMI with the ability to send image to the TV, it can be the information that is on the screen, VU meters, Control Panel, etc.)

4.- Outputs:
*Analog (Balanced, please! XLR or TRS and RCA single ended)
*Digital (Optical, coaxial or both, to have the possibility of using with external DAC, personally it seems redundant to me, but many people do it) *Sub Out (with bass management!, LPF and HPF this seems VERY important to me, since many of us connect these devices to low-power amplifiers, and it is essential to be able to integrate a subwoofer correctly, without overlapping low frequencies and prevent the front ones from reproducing them, leaving this task to the sub)
*Bluetooth (personally I don't use it, it seems redundant to me and I don't understand those who request it, but there are some)

5.- In/Out USB (to be able to connect a storage unit or output to an external DAC)

6.- The choice of the DAC and its implementation also seems to me to be of vital relevance. Last generation ESS Sabre (9039) or AKM (449X), I think they would be the ones.

7.- I agree with other forum members that the user experience and the application environment is mandatory in this type of device. Friendly, simple software, with constant updates, is essential.

8.- Bluetooth remote control (not my use case, even more so if the application is well developed, but there are many people who use it)

9.- It should have compatibility with the main streaming services (Tidal Connect, Spotify Connect, Deezer, Qobuz, ChromeCast or GoogleCast and Airplay2)

10.- 12v trigger

11.- Since the development is carried out from scratch, it would be good to adapt the housing for eventual hidden use or with wall application through a separate accessory, such as the PowerNode Edge has.

12.- It would be a lot to ask, but if the cost allows it, a room correction function would be more than welcome. Even more so if it can be improved through software updates in the future.

13.- Personally I don't like devices with an external power supply, but it is a personal taste. I would put the power supply inside the cabinet.

14.- If you put a volume knob on it, please use the same material as the casing! in this case aluminum. Making it out of plastic is unforgivable. The feel when rotating should be more of soft resistance than lightness.

Finally, I want to indicate that this list of features seems like a description of the WiiM Ultra, but I am convinced that LinkPlay has made very little mistakes, it has done a good job and I would really like to have a Fosi product that is a worthy contender in this sector.
Once again I thank you for the opportunity of bring my thoughts and reiterate that these are only my opinions and points of view.
Greetings!

 

[Lobaba]

Since we use a full aluminum alloy casing, removing the antenna will result in weak WiFi and Bluetooth signals. Alternatively, we could use a plastic casing, but we believe it doesn't match the premium feel of aluminum alloy.

How about a usb port with small usb wifi/bluetooth

 

[will williams]

Good afternoon, Will!
In principle, thank you for the opportunity you give us as consumers to express our opinions based on the development of a new product. In short, I think that a Streamer DAC + Pre, whether with or without an amplification stage, is a very attractive product. A good example of this is the WiiM Ultra. That said, if they decide to develop a Streamer DAC + Pre, then it can be paired with ZA3, V3 Mono, etc.

It is because of your support that the FOSI AUDIO brand can go further.

 

[will williams]

Below I am going to list a series of features that would be essential for my use case, but also thinking about the rest of the users and keeping costs low.

1.- I find A to be the most attractive design, although D is more faithful to the style of the Fosi brand. They both seem very good to me.

2.- Monochrome OLED screen for certain information about the file being played, source, volume, etc. No color touch screens that drive up the retail price.

3.- Inputs:
*Analog (RCA with line level, without phono stage. Anyone who likes vinyl can connect their own phono stage and not raise the price for a feature that a minority uses)
*Digital (RJ45, WiFi, optical, coaxial and HDMI with the ability to send image to the TV, it can be the information that is on the screen, VU meters, Control Panel, etc.)

4.- Outputs:
*Analog (Balanced, please! XLR or TRS and RCA single ended)
*Digital (Optical, coaxial or both, to have the possibility of using with external DAC, personally it seems redundant to me, but many people do it) *Sub Out (with bass management!, LPF and HPF this seems VERY important to me, since many of us connect these devices to low-power amplifiers, and it is essential to be able to integrate a subwoofer correctly, without overlapping low frequencies and prevent the front ones from reproducing them, leaving this task to the sub)
*Bluetooth (personally I don't use it, it seems redundant to me and I don't understand those who request it, but there are some)

5.- In/Out USB (to be able to connect a storage unit or output to an external DAC)

6.- The choice of the DAC and its implementation also seems to me to be of vital relevance. Last generation ESS Sabre (9039) or AKM (449X), I think they would be the ones.

7.- I agree with other forum members that the user experience and the application environment is mandatory in this type of device. Friendly, simple software, with constant updates, is essential.

8.- Bluetooth remote control (not my use case, even more so if the application is well developed, but there are many people who use it)

9.- It should have compatibility with the main streaming services (Tidal Connect, Spotify Connect, Deezer, Qobuz, ChromeCast or GoogleCast and Airplay2)

10.- 12v trigger

11.- Since the development is carried out from scratch, it would be good to adapt the housing for eventual hidden use or with wall application through a separate accessory, such as the PowerNode Edge has.

12.- It would be a lot to ask, but if the cost allows it, a room correction function would be more than welcome. Even more so if it can be improved through software updates in the future.

13.- Personally I don't like devices with an external power supply, but it is a personal taste. I would put the power supply inside the cabinet.

14.- If you put a volume knob on it, please use the same material as the casing! in this case aluminum. Making it out of plastic is unforgivable. The feel when rotating should be more of soft resistance than lightness.

Finally, I want to indicate that this list of features seems like a description of the WiiM Ultra, but I am convinced that LinkPlay has made very little mistakes, it has done a good job and I would really like to have a Fosi product that is a worthy contender in this sector.
Once again I thank you for the opportunity of bring my thoughts and reiterate that these are only my opinions and points of view.
Greetings!

HI Karlaka

I sincerely express my gratitude to you for taking your valuable time to provide us with these suggestions.
Many of the suggestions here have been extremely helpful to us and are also the features we are planning to define.

I have a few questions regarding the suggestions you provided that I would like to consult with you:

5) Several users have also expressed a need for USB out, and most of them use this interface to connect to an external DAC. If there is OPT OUT, why is USB OUT still needed, since both are digital signal outputs?

11）In your description, you lean towards this product being used embedded in the wall; do you think the knob would be unsuitable for installation in this usage scenario? And would it be better to use buttons for volume control instead?

​

 

[will williams]

How about a usb port with small usb wifi/bluetooth

This is one direction.

 

[Karlaka]

Hello again, Will. Good night.
In response to your questions:

5- The USB digital output is not strictly necessary, but it is highly desirable. I understand that it supports a much higher bandwidth and resolution than the optical output and also if it is asynchronous USB, the clock used is that of the DAC itself and not that of the source, reducing the possibility of jitter and unwanted effects. All of these statements can be endorsed better than me by someone who has technical knowledge.

11- I am not inclined towards using it on the wall, in fact it is not my use case, but many people can use it this way and need to hide devices to have a more minimalist presentation of the listening room, that is why I suggest that the chassis be designed with the possibility of attaching to a socket that is fixed to the wall, although it is sold separately (images attached). I definitely prefer a well-designed knob over buttons. And also have the possibility of controlling the volume through the application on the phone or the remote control.






Best regards!

 

[will williams]

Hello again, Will. Good night.
In response to your questions:

5- The USB digital output is not strictly necessary, but it is highly desirable. I understand that it supports a much higher bandwidth and resolution than the optical output and also if it is asynchronous USB, the clock used is that of the DAC itself and not that of the source, reducing the possibility of jitter and unwanted effects. All of these statements can be endorsed better than me by someone who has technical knowledge.

11- I am not inclined towards using it on the wall, in fact it is not my use case, but many people can use it this way and need to hide devices to have a more minimalist presentation of the listening room, that is why I suggest that the chassis be designed with the possibility of attaching to a socket that is fixed to the wall, although it is sold separately (images attached). I definitely prefer a well-designed knob over buttons. And also have the possibility of controlling the volume through the application on the phone or the remote control.

View attachment 264 View attachment 265 View attachment 266 View attachment 267

View attachment 268


Best regards!

Hi karlaka
Good morning

haha, thank you so much for answering my doubts.

 

[joostdh]

I actually thought that I would have a WiiM ultra by now and not be looking for another pre/streamer for the foreseeable future. This is not the case.

A pre/streamer in this age must cater to an amazing wide range of services if it want to appeal to a wide audience. Some people use iOS, some android, some Spotify, some swear by Roon, etc, etc.

Now I am a iOS/macos user and I didn’t buy the Ultra because no airplay. I know airplay isn’t lossless but the convince is amazing. I use it for sources that aren’t hires anyway like streaming radio (a lot of bbc sounds for example). Also it’s easy to use for my children. I prefer them using airplay than the alternative: listening via the phone’s speaker

There has been some great feedback above. I agree that an analog input is useful. I would need one for my phones pre. Alternatively a phono input, like on the ultra, is nice but for a price conscience device quality would be limited.

Software development and UI would be very important for a device like this. I would need to trust a brand to have a ongoing development so that I can still use Spotify of Deezer or whatever, even in five years when these companies have surely been tweaking the APIs.

UI is another story. And product like this needs a good app, as an input medium and to adjust settings. WiiM is well regarded in that aspect but honestly, their app isn’t even that great (I have a WiiM amp). But it is much better than the competition (I’ve used Marantz and Denon apps). I honestly believe there is still a lot of room for improvement.

On the design of the enclosure: I think a strong design language really enhance a brand’s appeal. Option D would connect to and further build on some of the strong successes Fosi has had and would — imo — be the sensible starting point.

On a personal note: I dislike the quirky design of Fiio R9. It would suit a desktop but I would be looking at something for my tv cabinet. And that’s an important development consideration; where would the product be used: desktop or living room?

Hope some of this helps and furthers your ideas and development.